October 01, 2006

wikipedia as source code / emergent trust structure

And here we have some bright fellow describing how you might apply a distributed version control system to it. This occurred to me probably about a year ago, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it has occurred to a great many other developers when they looked at wikipedia. The diff page is probably the biggest clue towards thinking in this direction. Then you have recent changes (the changelog, or svn log, etc.) which show the history of patches applied, and you see merges, merge conflicts, people reverting patches, etc.

There you have it, all the sort of behavior that arises in collaborative version control systems. Only wikipedia and wikis in general were imagined up as a totally new technical paradigm. They do introduce some amount of newness, but not a whole lot imho. The biggest thing is that contribution is so damn easy; you just need a browser. You don't even need a *gasp* text editor or a *gasp* version control system.

Umm, I think you do need these things. I think we've reached that point. But I also think that the original idea of low barriers to contribution is very much worth retaining. What we need is for someone to cook up a web interface to all of the important functionality in version control systems, in a way that doesn't totally suck of course. Throw in some simple editing interface and you're done--but always retain the version control system under the covers...expose that via the nice command line tools we expect of version control, and even expose it programmatically so other machines can directly interface to it, for mirroring, logging, presenting a particular logical view of the content, statistics, whatever.

Back to Sitataker's ideas on wikipedia. So individual people are free to run their own wikipedia and accept patches from other wikipedias. I think this is a great idea. He also talks about some wikipedias which are run by an expert, for instance a historian who has exceptional judgment when it comes to patches on WWII, and he basically acts as a branch which aggregates "good" patches on WWII. These patches are further merged to the main wikipedia site by dint of him being so famous / trusted and all.

I like almost everything here except the idea of a "main wikipedia site." I think for the wikipedia idea to be durable, that is going to have to go away. People hear "wikipedia" and the immediately think The Wikipedia which is the ultimate and final word on any subject amen. After all, it's all unbiased facts, right?

Yeah, good luck with that one. Even a collection of unbiased facts has bias; there is the selection of what unbiased facts to include, what facts to omit, the order they are presented in, and so on. There is no escaping the bias.

So admit wikipedia is biased. Admit that it will always be that way. Call it Jimbopedia or something. We call Linux "Linux" for a reason, we don't call it The Unix. It is A Unix variant ultimately controlled by the bias and personal tastes of one man, Linus Torvalds, and appropriately bears his name because of that.

You're free to fork your own Linux at any time and call it Bobix. But you've got a lot to prove if you want me to start using Bobix instead of Linux; chances are, you're not going to. Linus Torvalds is one of the best effing developers out there, and you're going to have your work cut out for you, Bob. People trust Linus. He's proved himself to them. Nevertheless forks occur and take people with them, like DragonflyBSD, for instance. These guys have really good ideas on how to do thread IPC solely via message passing, which simplifies a lot of concurrency issues. But the FreeBSD maintainers didn't quite agree, so they forked and did their own thing. Perfectly ok.

So to summarize, in the end you have a bunch of decentralized wikipedias merging selectively with each other, and the market determines whose best. The structure of trust will emerge, both between wikipedias, and between wikipedias and the vast public.

Let it emerge. Don't force it.

Posted by Alan at October 1, 2006 12:50 PM
Comments

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"

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Posted by: qNTGzCf at March 26, 2007 06:29 AM

Wow, I came to this conclusion independently!

http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia

Posted by: Shii at May 7, 2007 10:41 AM

Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.

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Posted by: Matti at February 16, 2008 02:39 AM

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"
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Wow, I came to this conclusion independently!

http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia
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Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.
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Posted by: Matti at February 16, 2008 02:42 AM

Imagine decentralizing Wikipedia with Codeville
Kragen Sitaker kragen at pobox.com
Thu Jun 9 03:37:01 EDT 2005

* Previous message: dominant assurance contracts for funding public goods, especially free software
* Next message: random juxtapositions of software
* Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

(This is 2100 words, or almost 10 minutes of reading, and could
probably become 800 words productively. I might do that later.)

Support for Disagreement
------------------------

In http://shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html "Ontology is
Overrated," Clay Shirky describes one advantage of tagging systems
like del.icio.us as follows:

* Market Logic - ... we're moving towards market logic, where you
deal with individual motivation, but group value.

As Schachter says of del.icio.us, "Each individual categorization
scheme is worth less than a professional categorization
scheme. But there are many, many more of them." ...

The other essential value of market logic is that individual
differences don't have to be homogenized. ... with tagging, anyone
is free to use the words he or she thinks are appropriate, without
having to agree with anyone else about how something "should" be
tagged. Market logic allows many distinct points of view to
co-exist, because it allows individuals to preserve their point of
view, even in the face of general disagreement.

So support for individual points of view amidst general disagreement
is one of the benefits of del.icio.us over dmoz or Yahoo, and it's
built into the architecture of the system --- it's not just a social
practice. Could Wikipedia's architecture change to support divergent
points of view better?

In some cases, I think that some technical advance would help with
solving some social problem; for example, I think crazy old Tom Lord
may have been correct that better source-code version-tracking systems
could allow more people to collaborate productively on software by
allowing any user to maintain their own stream of development into
which they merge patches as easily as the official maintainer, a
feature CVS does not support.

There are some people who respond to any such suggestions with the
aphorism that technical solutions cannot solve social problems. I
think this aphorism contains seeds of truth and seeds of falsehood.
It is partly true, in that existing institutions and patterns of
interaction often contain internal problems that do not depend on any
technical infrastructure. It is also partly false, however, for three
reasons.

When Technological Artifacts Can Solve Social Problems
------------------------------------------------------

First, technological artifacts --- computers, source-control systems,
whatever --- are not purely value-neutral. They embed ways of
thinking and expectations about social interactions that reflect the
environments in which they evolved. For example, Unix provides no
mandatory access controls, because it evolved in an environment whose
users weren't trying to prevent other users from sharing information
with each other, and similarly for the internet; and now the DSL and
cable-modem parts of today's internet often provide no permanent IP
address users can use to publish information, because they were
developed for consumers, not participants. As a third example, Unix
was developed in an environment of extreme literacy, and consequently
many things about it are unduly difficult for people of limited
literacy.

When an institution adopts a technological artifact, it invariably
changes somewhat to accommodate the cultural expectations embedded in
the new artifact, if only by working around them. Often this causes
some changes in the structure of the institution. However, these
changes do not merely change the institution into a copy of the social
environment that developed the artifact, and in some cases may make
the institutions less alike. Problems inherent in the existing
relationships of the institution usually survive the adoption of new
artifacts. For example, many companies using Unix simply prohibit
"ordinary users" from logging into a Unix server, in order to prevent
them from sharing information with one another. The consequence is
sometimes to increase effective controls on information-sharing.

These changes are hard to predict. William Gibson summed this up in
his line, "The Street finds its own uses for things --- uses the
manufacturers never imagined."

Second, some social problems are simply the result of technical
problems. For example, nuclear power plants promote centralization of
energy-generating capacity, and consequently concentrate the wealth
generated by production of energy in the hands of the small number of
people who own the power plants. This social problem of
centralization, however, is in part the result of technical problems
with reactor safety and nuclear proliferation.

Third, new technical artifacts can support the existence of new
institutions, and those institutions may have different structures
from the existing institutions --- and they may crowd them out. For
example, the telephone made possible single companies that operated
many factories by providing a higher-bandwidth non-market means of
coordinating, and email mailing lists support private topical
discussion groups among geographically-distributed groups of people
with a common niche insterest.

So technical artifacts can create social problems, and by the same
token, solve them. They can't solve all social problems, and the way
that existing institutions make use of the artifacts depends closely
on the details of the existing institution, so it is very difficult to
predict what will happen.

Source Control as an Example
----------------------------

The particular kind of interaction that decentralized version control
tools, such as Tom Lord's "arch", Codeville, monotone, and darcs (as
well as a proprietary system) aim to support is something like this.
Many people have versions of a piece of software; the software is
broadly similar from person to person. Many of the people are making
changes to their local version, or "tree"; all of them select changes
from other people's versions to add to their own. It's possible to
move changes from one "tree" to another to the extent to which they
share common structure, but the structure is of course a function of
these changes over time.

This differs from the CVS approach, in which there's a single "trunk"
stream of development that the maintainer or maintainers adds new
versions to, and other contributors (if they exist at all) contribute
by emailing patches to a maintainer, who can then commit them to the
trunk. The other contributor may have their own local CVS repository,
but its ability to merge in changes from new "official" versions is
limited.

If an organization tries to adopt the "arch" model of the world while
using CVS, they have several choices.

They can treat each person's work area as a separate stream of
development, and the CVS repository as yet another stream; this means
that only one of the streams has version tracking. Worse, if people
try to exchange patches directly, they waste a lot of time resolving
spurious merge conflicts when they both try to commit the same set of
changes to the CVS repository.

They can create a separate CVS repository for each person; this
preserves version-tracking for each person, but makes getting code
changes back and forth considerably more difficult, and doesn't
eliminate the spurious merge conflicts.

They can use a separate CVS branch for each person; this makes CVS
very slow, but retains version-tracking for each person, and makes
getting code back and forth a little easier (though still dramatically
more difficult than ordinary CVS use); it still doesn't eliminate the
merge conflicts.

The nearly universal choice, with CVS, is to adopt a more centralized
model in which the CVS repository trunk is the Official Tree, even in
situations where that is costly; for example, in situations where it
isn't yet clear which design choice is better, or where you have to
support customers with an old version or a very strange hardware
setup.

So here we see a technical problem --- CVS's limitations, stemming
from the limited social dynamics it was built to support ---
reflecting itself in social problems. "arch", darcs, monotone,
Codeville, git, and other decentralized version-tracking systems aim
to support a wider array of development models; in particular, they
aim to allow each person's tree to stand alone as a first-class
citizen, easily sharing its changes with other similar trees.

Imagine Wikipedia Decentralized
-------------------------------

Imagine that we applied one of these systems to Wikipedia. We would
have several benefits: tolerance of controversy, disconnected
operation, higher availability, and potentially organizational
decentralization.

We could tolerate controversy better because Holocaust deniers would
have their own version of Wikipedia, which they could modify to their
heart's content. This would reduce their desire to modify the
Wikipedia that everyone else reads, but it would not eliminate it.

More importantly, though, allowing everyone to modify their own copy
of Wikipedia conveniently, but share the changes with anyone who
wanted them, would reduce the need to support changes by anonymous
people on the main Wikipedia site. Perhaps a historian, or several
historians, would undertake the task of merging together
history-related changes from many contributors, and the main Wikipedia
site would accept their changes automatically on history-related
articles --- but not history-related changes from other people.

In Linux, there's one fellow who decides what goes into the official
kernel, another fellow who tries stuff out for a while before the
first guy accepts it, and a small number of "lieutenants" who act as
gathering points for patches on particular topics, like memory
management or IDE support, so that the generalist fellows don't have
to spend as much time looking at those things --- they can just accept
en masse. And the lieutenants have subsystem maintainers who perform
the same function for them. Also, there are a dozen or so
distributions who take the official kernel and apply their own sets of
patches, gathered from different sources.

All of this is mediated by public discussion on mailing lists where
people publish their patches.

Of the process of selecting these people, Linus Torvalds says (in
http://www.linuxworld.com/story/46051.htm):

"It's not me or any other leader who picks them. The programmers
are very good at selecting leaders. There's no process for making
somebody a lieutenant. But somebody who gets things done, shows
good taste, and has good qualities -- people just start sending
them suggestions and patches. I didn't design it this way. This
happens because this is the way people work. It's very natural."

This sort of structure can make it considerably easier to incorporate
desirable changes into the Official Tree without including undesirable
ones. In Linux, perhaps the majority of changes are undesirable, but
that's probably not the case for Wikipedia; so Wikipedia probably
would benefit from a much more streamlined user interface for
submitting and accepting patches.

Presumably Holocaust deniers would have a hard time getting their
changes accepted by anyone, and so they would have a hard time getting
other people to contribute on their server.

Right now, Wikimedia's servers are a single point of failure for all
the millions of people who benefit from the whole Wikipedia project,
and the thousands who contribute.

Perhaps I would pull new changes from the wikipedia.org server onto my
laptop each night so I could consult Wikipedia when I was offline. I
might make changes to my local copy of Wikipedia, and the
version-tracking system (Codeville or whatever) would keep track of
those changes. When I got back online, I could submit them to
wikipedia.org, or the relevant subsystem maintainers, or whatever. If
the particular server I wanted to submit my changes to was down for a
few days, it wouldn't be a big deal; I'd still have my local copy and
my local changes, and I could still share them with other people.

Presumably other people would also run their own public mirrors of
Wikipedia. In fact, there are already such mirrors, mostly set up by
SEO spamming scum, but right now, they don't let you edit the articles
--- what would they do with the edits? Overwrite them with the next
version they copy from Wikipedia? Consequently, these mirrors are
mostly not very good. Imagine that they were actually making positive
contributions to the Wikipedia community, though: with their own
communities of contributors vetting changes, many good changes would
get made and reviewed without ever having to hit the main Wikipedia
site.

Wikipedia now has a budget, a team of system administrators, a
bandwidth bill, fund-raising drives, and banned-IP lists --- the
inevitable consequence, for now, of the operational centralization of
a service useful to all the people of the world. This operational
centralization might happen even if the underlying software supported
a more decentralized structure, but it wouldn't need to.

It should be obvious that I think this centralization is a necessary
evil, and I hope this approach would make it an unnecessary evil. But
kernel.org --- where people download the Linux kernel --- currently
has two Proliant DL585 quad-processor Opteron boxes with 24 GB of RAM
attached to two one-gigabit network links and a 10-terabyte disk
array. That's maybe US$100 000 of machinery (each server is about
$40k) to serve a relatively small part of the world's population. So
clearly the fact that copies of the kernel are all over the net
doesn't dissuade people from using the canonical site.

Credits
-------

I greatly appreciate the help of Brett C. Smith and Rohit Khare in
discussing these ideas; I also drew on the writings and speeches of
Clay Shirky, Greg Kroah-Hartman, Linus Torvalds, Joel Spolsky, Tom
Lord, and William Gibson.

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Posted by: Matti at February 16, 2008 02:44 AM

Comments

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"
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Posted by: qNTGzCf at March 26, 2007 06:29 AM

Wow, I came to this conclusion independently!

http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia
Posted by: Shii at May 7, 2007 10:41 AM

Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.
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Posted by: Matti at February 16, 2008 02:48 AM

maelstrom
« happy gif freedom day! | Main | idiosyncrasy itself »
October 01, 2006
wikipedia as source code / emergent trust structure

And here we have some bright fellow describing how you might apply a distributed version control system to it. This occurred to me probably about a year ago, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it has occurred to a great many other developers when they looked at wikipedia. The diff page is probably the biggest clue towards thinking in this direction. Then you have recent changes (the changelog, or svn log, etc.) which show the history of patches applied, and you see merges, merge conflicts, people reverting patches, etc.

There you have it, all the sort of behavior that arises in collaborative version control systems. Only wikipedia and wikis in general were imagined up as a totally new technical paradigm. They do introduce some amount of newness, but not a whole lot imho. The biggest thing is that contribution is so damn easy; you just need a browser. You don't even need a *gasp* text editor or a *gasp* version control system.

Umm, I think you do need these things. I think we've reached that point. But I also think that the original idea of low barriers to contribution is very much worth retaining. What we need is for someone to cook up a web interface to all of the important functionality in version control systems, in a way that doesn't totally suck of course. Throw in some simple editing interface and you're done--but always retain the version control system under the covers...expose that via the nice command line tools we expect of version control, and even expose it programmatically so other machines can directly interface to it, for mirroring, logging, presenting a particular logical view of the content, statistics, whatever.

Back to Sitataker's ideas on wikipedia. So individual people are free to run their own wikipedia and accept patches from other wikipedias. I think this is a great idea. He also talks about some wikipedias which are run by an expert, for instance a historian who has exceptional judgment when it comes to patches on WWII, and he basically acts as a branch which aggregates "good" patches on WWII. These patches are further merged to the main wikipedia site by dint of him being so famous / trusted and all.

I like almost everything here except the idea of a "main wikipedia site." I think for the wikipedia idea to be durable, that is going to have to go away. People hear "wikipedia" and the immediately think The Wikipedia which is the ultimate and final word on any subject amen. After all, it's all unbiased facts, right?

Yeah, good luck with that one. Even a collection of unbiased facts has bias; there is the selection of what unbiased facts to include, what facts to omit, the order they are presented in, and so on. There is no escaping the bias.

So admit wikipedia is biased. Admit that it will always be that way. Call it Jimbopedia or something. We call Linux "Linux" for a reason, we don't call it The Unix. It is A Unix variant ultimately controlled by the bias and personal tastes of one man, Linus Torvalds, and appropriately bears his name because of that.

You're free to fork your own Linux at any time and call it Bobix. But you've got a lot to prove if you want me to start using Bobix instead of Linux; chances are, you're not going to. Linus Torvalds is one of the best effing developers out there, and you're going to have your work cut out for you, Bob. People trust Linus. He's proved himself to them. Nevertheless forks occur and take people with them, like DragonflyBSD, for instance. These guys have really good ideas on how to do thread IPC solely via message passing, which simplifies a lot of concurrency issues. But the FreeBSD maintainers didn't quite agree, so they forked and did their own thing. Perfectly ok.

So to summarize, in the end you have a bunch of decentralized wikipedias merging selectively with each other, and the market determines whose best. The structure of trust will emerge, both between wikipedias, and between wikipedias and the vast public.

Let it emerge. Don't force it.
Posted by Alan at October 1, 2006 12:50 PM
Comments

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"
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Posted by: qNTGzCf at March 26, 2007 06:29 AM

Wow, I came to this conclusion independently!

http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia
Posted by: Shii at May 7, 2007 10:41 AM

Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.
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Posted by: Matti at February 16, 2008 02:51 AM

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"
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Wow, I came to this conclusion independently!

http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia
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Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.
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Comments

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"
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http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia
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Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.
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Posted by: Matti at February 16, 2008 03:43 AM

Comments

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"
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Wow, I came to this conclusion independently!

http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia
Posted by: Shii at May 7, 2007 10:41 AM

Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.
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Posted by: Matti at February 16, 2008 03:46 AM

maelstrom
« happy gif freedom day! | Main | idiosyncrasy itself »
October 01, 2006
wikipedia as source code / emergent trust structure

And here we have some bright fellow describing how you might apply a distributed version control system to it. This occurred to me probably about a year ago, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it has occurred to a great many other developers when they looked at wikipedia. The diff page is probably the biggest clue towards thinking in this direction. Then you have recent changes (the changelog, or svn log, etc.) which show the history of patches applied, and you see merges, merge conflicts, people reverting patches, etc.

There you have it, all the sort of behavior that arises in collaborative version control systems. Only wikipedia and wikis in general were imagined up as a totally new technical paradigm. They do introduce some amount of newness, but not a whole lot imho. The biggest thing is that contribution is so damn easy; you just need a browser. You don't even need a *gasp* text editor or a *gasp* version control system.

Umm, I think you do need these things. I think we've reached that point. But I also think that the original idea of low barriers to contribution is very much worth retaining. What we need is for someone to cook up a web interface to all of the important functionality in version control systems, in a way that doesn't totally suck of course. Throw in some simple editing interface and you're done--but always retain the version control system under the covers...expose that via the nice command line tools we expect of version control, and even expose it programmatically so other machines can directly interface to it, for mirroring, logging, presenting a particular logical view of the content, statistics, whatever.

Back to Sitataker's ideas on wikipedia. So individual people are free to run their own wikipedia and accept patches from other wikipedias. I think this is a great idea. He also talks about some wikipedias which are run by an expert, for instance a historian who has exceptional judgment when it comes to patches on WWII, and he basically acts as a branch which aggregates "good" patches on WWII. These patches are further merged to the main wikipedia site by dint of him being so famous / trusted and all.

I like almost everything here except the idea of a "main wikipedia site." I think for the wikipedia idea to be durable, that is going to have to go away. People hear "wikipedia" and the immediately think The Wikipedia which is the ultimate and final word on any subject amen. After all, it's all unbiased facts, right?

Yeah, good luck with that one. Even a collection of unbiased facts has bias; there is the selection of what unbiased facts to include, what facts to omit, the order they are presented in, and so on. There is no escaping the bias.

So admit wikipedia is biased. Admit that it will always be that way. Call it Jimbopedia or something. We call Linux "Linux" for a reason, we don't call it The Unix. It is A Unix variant ultimately controlled by the bias and personal tastes of one man, Linus Torvalds, and appropriately bears his name because of that.

You're free to fork your own Linux at any time and call it Bobix. But you've got a lot to prove if you want me to start using Bobix instead of Linux; chances are, you're not going to. Linus Torvalds is one of the best effing developers out there, and you're going to have your work cut out for you, Bob. People trust Linus. He's proved himself to them. Nevertheless forks occur and take people with them, like DragonflyBSD, for instance. These guys have really good ideas on how to do thread IPC solely via message passing, which simplifies a lot of concurrency issues. But the FreeBSD maintainers didn't quite agree, so they forked and did their own thing. Perfectly ok.

So to summarize, in the end you have a bunch of decentralized wikipedias merging selectively with each other, and the market determines whose best. The structure of trust will emerge, both between wikipedias, and between wikipedias and the vast public.

Let it emerge. Don't force it.
Posted by Alan at October 1, 2006 12:50 PM
Comments

Re: Wikis as a totally new technical paradigm, the first wiki's immediate antecedent was a HyperCard stack -- and the HyperCard document model was pretty much here it is, it's kind of like an application, or at any rate it's not just a document because it's got rich content and scripting and linking, and anyway you just go ahead and edit that now. Granted that other documents passed around in the same way are editable by their users, but I think HyperCard stacks encouraged it it a way that's importantly different. And of course they were rich hypertext with lots of switching between cards. So what wiki really added to that was "here's the document on a network". (Well, and lightweight markup. And of course you didn't get the scripting or the multiple media, tho modern fat wikis like MediaWiki are rapidly approaching Turing completeness.) I think the other thing is that Ward Cunningham & co. are programmers, and it seems like the version tracking stuff has been in there for a very long time. I can't remember when I first encountered WardsWiki, but it was long before the birth of Wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure they were doing diffs then.

Anyway. On the centralized Wikipedia: I think the really big win you get with a "main wikipedia" is the sheer critical mass of the thing. Gazillions of contributors introduces problems (the big one, frex, where no matter how many times you remove a known fallacy from an article, someone can be counted on to show up and "correct" things as soon as you quit paying attention), but it also makes for an astonishingly broad knowledge base. When was the last time you went to Wikipedia looking for a topic and didn't find at least a few lines of stub article? It happens to me, but not often. I'm not sure I want to lose the benefits of that scale, and I definitely don't think the appropriate solution is to have a swarm (or even a handful) of _total_ wikipedia forks. Modularity would be key. If you decide Emacs needs to be forked, you don't go and pull in the kernel, X, and gcc while you're at it. Or maybe you do, but it seems like a losing proposition. Maybe distributions, a la Linux, are something of answer here - "This is my wikipedia distro, which bundles Bob's History Changeset and the Free Software Documentation Consortium pages with John's Fanboy Filter." Or something more like user-defined schemes for pulling together streams of articles from different maintainers.

The convenience of a central and relatively well-integrated search space is big, too. I go to Wikipedia before I go to Google on a lot of topics now.

But this is a trivial objection to the main point. I think probably that the right role for a big-W Wikipedia in an ecosystem of little-w wikipedias would be to synthesize, integrate, and provide a structured guide to a lot of work being done elsewhere. And I do think there's a lot to be gained. NPOV is a worthwhile goal, in some sense, but it's also schizophrenic, it has a tendency to undermine good writing (not because it's impossible to dispassionately summarize differing views with something like fairness, but because this requires a lot of skill and a lot of thought - and because if you take it literally, I guess it does become impossible - truly neutral language doesn't carry any meaning), and its worthwhile goals would sometimes be better served by providing a structured point of entry to a set of well-expressed real points of view. No Original Research may have its place in an encyclopedia, but personally I'm fucking sick of just synthesizing secondary sources and I think we need a wikilike or collaborative way to do original research, peer review it, and feed it into the wikipedia system. I'm sure somebody's working on this, but I definitely want it to become a larger part of the process.

I'm rambling. Generally I also think that a set of technical mechanisms and a structure of trust will emerge. We're a couple of years past the question of "can this thing work?" and well into the territory of "how will this thing evolve?"
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Wow, I came to this conclusion independently!

http://shii.org/knows/Shii%27s_Solution_to_the_Problem_of_Wikipedia
Posted by: Shii at May 7, 2007 10:41 AM

Disagree about Linus. He's a fairly ordinary developer. He just has a lot of resources and assistants (lieutenants, he calls them). Be careful: you're making an argument for authoritarianism, or at least irrational conservatism.
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Posted by: joispupsser at March 26, 2008 02:04 AM
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